RH Episode Discussion - 1x13

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

Okay guys, time for a bit of episode discussion to get the Robin love flowing. That sounds sort of wrong...

1x13 is the chosen episode to be discussed first, as the favourite of season 1 as voted by you. As with the BoB discussion, if you have not yet seen the episode (doubtful, I realise), it is needless to say there will be spoilers below, and in the comments to this entry. Enter at your own peril. Or something slightly less sinister.

And again, just to keep things from getting too tricky for everyone to follow, when you begin discussion on one of the suggested points below, please put a subject on your comment. If you're discussing a new point, please do the same, and not reply to that comment. That way everything will stay in its own place, and make life easier for everyone. Also, once comment threads start reaching the edge of the page, feel free to start a new comment, so that they are, again, easier for everyone to follow. (On this point, if you bring up a discussion topic not listed below, if you add a subject, it will make things easier to follow)

On to the discussion. Again, as before, these are more guidelines than actual rules discussion points. Feel free to bring up anything not mentioned here. There's plenty to talk about in this episode that I haven't included.


Discussion Points:

1. Berserker!Robs. Awesome, yes?

2. The "I am marrying him", conversation between Robin and Marian. Thoughts? Likes, dislikes? (Wanted to yell at Marian like I did?)

3. Favourite quote from the episode.

4. Favourite actor - for their performance in this episode specifically.

5. On a scale of one to ten, how hard do you want to rip off Robs's clothes when he's in Berserker! mode? (Thanks to railise for this question. :D)

6. Favourite character - Seems redundant in this comm, but again, for this episode specifically.

7. Marian's punch. Thoughts?

8. The berserker! fight scene when the Outlaws show team leather who rocks. Thoughts on Robs throwing his no killing policy out the window, did you like the way it was filmed/acted/etc etc?

9. Did you feel any character in this episode acted OOC?

10. Robs semi auto arrow shooting. Thoughts, fangirlish squeeing about this.

11. The scene between Much and Robin (when Robin gets shoved for being a meanie). Thoughts on this. Necessary? Was Robs overboard on the cruelty, or do you feel for him because you know how much he is hurting at that moment?

12. "I am sick of doing the right thing." Thoughts on this Robin and Edward scene.

13. Have you seen this episode with the commentary? If yes, thoughts on this?

14. The final sequence, with Vaizey flailing about in the air. Awesome, or over the top and silly?

15. Robin's decision to just walk away from it all. Did you think this was an understandable/justified reaction?

16. The KISS (You know the one I mean). Thoughts of FINALLY and general squee about it?

17. On the subject of the kiss, and them not wanting to be seen entering together...those two guards at the gate. Mannequins?

18. Edward. Did you like his scenes in this episode? Do you think we should have seen more of him?

19. Favourite scene overall, for whatever reason you have chosen it.

20. Anything you would have done differently in this episode if you magically had control and could change it.

21.
[Poll #1547800]

Hope this promotes some interesting discussion. Have fun!

Comments

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll start. Just answering a few for now.

1. Berserker!Robs. Awesome, yes?
Yes, obviously.

4. Favourite actor - for their performance in this episode specifically.
Jonas, duh. Robin goes through such an emotional rollercoaster in this ep: Rage when he's picking off Vaisey's men, grief for Marian's "death," overwhelming joy when she comes back to life, hopelessness when he realizes she's still going to marry Guy, and back to his usual bravado and tongue-in-cheek humor when he rides in to save the day. That's quite a range, but I thought Jonas nailed it.

5. On a scale of one to ten, how hard do you want to rip off Robs's clothes when he's in Berserker! mode? (Thanks to railise for this question. :D)
Definitely a 10. He's never sexier to me than when he's kicking ass.

6. Favourite character - Seems redundant in this comm, but again, for this episode specifically.
I actually have to say Much. I love Robin (obviously, I wouldn't be here otherwise), but it was great to see Much finally lash out at him, and I love when he stops Guy and Marian's wedding. The intensity of his devotion to Robin, even after Robs was such an ass to him, is very touching.

11. The scene between Much and Robin (when Robin gets shoved for being a meanie). Thoughts on this. Necessary? Was Robs overboard on the cruelty, or do you feel for him because you know how much he is hurting at that moment?
As much as I hate that scene, I think it probably was necessary. I feel bad for Robin, but I do think he went a bit overboard. In his defense, I can understand why he wasn't comforted by Much telling him he had to let Guy steal his life and prattling about Bonchurch, but Much didn't deserve to be compared to a pox on Robin's skin.

13. Have you seen this episode with the commentary? If yes, thoughts on this?
I enjoyed it, although a lot of it seemed to be a Guy lovefest, and I was with Jonas in wondering where the love for Robin was. But some of the comments where very amusing. I particularly liked Jonas saying Guy was a murderer and Lucy replying, "But he's a nice-looking murderer."

16. The KISS (You know the one I mean). Thoughts of FINALLY and general squee about it?
It was perfect. The way he whisks her away on the back of his horse and kisses her before riding off to save the day seems straight out a fairy tale. I love how they're both so happy to finally be together, and at least for that moment, they don't seem to care if anyone sees. *sigh*

20. Anything you would have done differently in this episode if you magically had control and could change it.
I would have had Robin apologize to Much -- not necessarily an actual "I'm sorry," but some form of acknowledgement that he was an ass, or at least a "thank you" for stopping the wedding.

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

On number 4, I completely agree with you. He manages to make the back and forward between so many emotions quite believable.

On 13, and I was with Jonas in wondering where the love for Robin was...right there with you on that point. I LOVE all the "He's still gonna burn" stuff, it's hilarious. And so right

Also very much with you on points 6 and 11 there.

And how could I forget number 5?! Obviously, also a 10. Berserker!, fighting Robs is the finest kind.

[railise]

On 13, and I was with Jonas in wondering where the love for Robin was...right there with you on that point. I LOVE all the "He's still gonna burn" stuff, it's hilarious. And so right

Didn't we say we should make him an unofficial mod of this community for saying that stuff? ;) If it weren't kinda weird/creepy, I'd say we should totally post it somewhere, lol. :D

Will get a proper reply up to all of your excellent points (and my one excellent point-- thanks for the credit there XD) this afternoon...

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

Oh, he is definitely an unofficial mod. He shares the Robs appreciation.

Very much looking forward to your discussion. ;)

[kegel84.livejournal.com]

1. Berserker!Robs. Awesome, yes?

lol of course. I love it from the start (with the dark look) till the end.

3. Favourite quote from the episode.

"I have moral reasons."

4. Favourite actor - for their performance in this episode specifically.

Jonas, naturally.

5. On a scale of one to ten, how hard do you want to rip off Robs's clothes when he's in Berserker! mode? (Thanks to railise for this question. :D)

10 and not only then. Well, I probably want to hug him later on.

11. The scene between Much and Robin (when Robin gets shoved for being a meanie). Thoughts on this. Necessary? Was Robs overboard on the cruelty, or do you feel for him because you know how much he is hurting at that moment?

I just rewatched that bit because I hadn't remembered it really well and was surprised how mean Robin actually was. It wasn't just a snide remark, but a purposeful cut against Much.

15. Robin's decision to just walk away from it all. Did you think this was an understandable/justified reaction?

It seems a bit odd that he didn't seem to care about the king returning (especially considering his obsession with the man later on lol), but generally wanting to walk away, yes, understandable, as Gisborne *is* taking away his life... and if Robin can't prove that Gisborne is a traitor, it's not even certain that the king coming back would make a huge difference (IMO... they always assume that the king coming back would set everything right, but that's not a given). And as Robin said, Marian would still be married to Guy.

17. On the subject of the kiss, and them not wanting to be seen entering together...those two guards at the gate. Mannequins?

Guards don't count, didn't you know? :P

20. Anything you would have done differently in this episode if you magically had control and could change it.

I'd have an apology from Robin to Much, too.

[marjattak.livejournal.com]

About 15. There are so many problems with logic here. I posted another reply with my own take, but yes, I suppose we were supposed to assume, as Robin had said, that Marian's marriage would be permanent. Except--logically--Guy was a traitor and might not survive the real Richard's justice, especially if Robin could convince him of Guy's assassination attempt. (Seemed possible to me at the time, but after ep 2x13, no way! Richard is an idiot!)

Minghella did cheat on this point in the script, I thought. When Robin rides into Locksley and Much yells that the king is an imposter, Robin says something like, "I thought so." I guess this was to help us understand why Robin did give up. However, we had no prior indication at all, in any of the dialogue or action, that Robin had suspected any foul play here.

[kegel84.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I cannot remember any instance either that Robin suspected foul play before.

Concerning Marian, Robin might mean yet another matter... he says it "cannot be undone"... even if Gisborne were sentenced as a traitor later, he still would have married, taken to his bed (and potentially fathered a child with) Marian...

And yes, I have now this picture in my mind with Richard coming back and being a total idiot... (this might just as well be a plot bunny *runs off to write*)

[marjattak.livejournal.com]

Have been sick (bleh) for days, but can't keep away from this one. I'll just attempt one.

15. Robin's decision to just walk away from it all. Did you think this was an understandable/justified reaction?

I thought it was justified. Knowing a bit about how depression makes one irrational, I could see that Robin was so overwhelmed by Marian's refusal to avoid marriage with Gisborne and Edward's refusal to think of his daughter's welfare in marriage (just like a proper medieval Dad!), that Robin would at this point give up. What assurance did Robin have that he'd be fully reinstated at Locksley? What assurance did he have that Gisborne would be punished for treason and that Marian would then (after proper widowhood) want to marry Robin? Robin's reaction wasn't about practical issues of lands, freedom, and eventual marriage, but a gut reaction to being discarded both by Marian and Edward, the two people (aside from Much) whom he counted as his remaining "family."

I don't think Robin was even looking for a new life. He was just looking to get away from the pain. He makes an awfully "quick" recovery, as it turns out, but there was only about 5 minutes of screen left in the series. LOL

[railise]

1. Berserker!Robs. Awesome, yes? Ohhhh, yes. XD

2. The "I am marrying him", conversation between Robin and Marian. Thoughts? Likes, dislikes? (Wanted to yell at Marian like I did?) I liked how frustrated she got when he wouldn't respond to her as he walked out-- felt she really had that coming. I suppose, from a practical standpoint, she was doing what she felt she had to do, but I don't want practical. I want a heroine who's going to try to find some way out of a situation she doesn't want to be in.

3. Favourite quote from the episode. "Do you take this man, and this horse" --gets me EVERY time :D

4. Favourite actor - for their performance in this episode specifically. Hmm... tough choice... I think I've gotta go with the fake king.

Or, y'know, Jonas. ;) It's already been mentioned about the range of emotions he had to portray here, and he nailed every one of them.

5. On a scale of one to ten, how hard do you want to rip off Robs's clothes when he's in Berserker! mode? (Thanks to railise for this question. :D) About seventy bajillion. But that's nothing new, nor is it specific to this episode. ;) (Berserker!mode just adds a few jillion to that number.)

6. Favourite character - Seems redundant in this comm, but again, for this episode specifically. I would've said Robin, because it's Robin... but amarra_jade's points about Much are definitely solid, and I have to concur. (And Will's tear in the cave gut-punches me almost as much as Robin's grief, so he gets a special mention.)

7. Marian's punch. Thoughts? Not hard enough. ;) Actually, I cheered the first time I saw it, and still have a bit of that reaction with each subsequent rewatch.

8. The berserker! fight scene when the Outlaws show team leather who rocks. Thoughts on Robs throwing his no killing policy out the window, did you like the way it was filmed/acted/etc etc? I think this is effing BRILLIANT. The alternating focused-on-one-character shots with wide shots, Much charging at the camera, John's face when he gets shot, Robin just going mad with both the bow and the sword, Djaq flinging guys over her back, and then Will and Allan coming in to save the day... I'm getting excited just THINKING about it. XD I'm a huge fight-scene fan. :D

9. Did you feel any character in this episode acted OOC?
I can't say that I did. Every action that was abnormal for a character seemed to have a reason, imo.

10. Robs semi auto arrow shooting. Thoughts, fangirlish squeeing about this. FREAKING AWESOME! And funny/sad when I noticed that the profile shot of him doing that had no arrows.

---TO BE CONTINUED since my comment was too long

[railise]

11. The scene between Much and Robin (when Robin gets shoved for being a meanie). Thoughts on this. Necessary? Was Robs overboard on the cruelty, or do you feel for him because you know how much he is hurting at that moment? He was absolutely overboard and out of line. To be fair, he was hurting deeply, and the last person he'd expect not to be on his side basically told him to suck it up; so, his lashing out shouldn't be a huge surprise. But he definitely did take it too far.

12. "I am sick of doing the right thing." Thoughts on this Robin and Edward scene. I thought this was a long time coming. Robin's been through five years of war, expected to come back to the comfortable life he was used to, and wound up in the forest, outlawed. They're all entitled to moments like this, really; but I do think he'd be the first to have one.

13. Have you seen this episode with the commentary? If yes, thoughts on this? I watch it regularly with the commentary, actually, lol. I do love the interactions between everybody, although the pro-G/M'ness is a bit much from people who are supposed to be telling the story of Robin Hood, the legendary love of Marian. But what do I know, I'm just a fan of the legends. ;)

14. The final sequence, with Vaizey flailing about in the air. Awesome, or over the top and silly? All of the above, and perfectly setting up the slightly more romp-like feel of S2.

15. Robin's decision to just walk away from it all. Did you think this was an understandable/justified reaction? I think he would have eventually come back, but yes-- understandable. I think a lot of the time he'd been going with the idea that everything would be set to rights soon, but Marian's marriage to Gisborne would have nullified what I believe he had in mind.

16. The KISS (You know the one I mean). Thoughts of FINALLY and general squee about it? *swoon*

17. On the subject of the kiss, and them not wanting to be seen entering together...those two guards at the gate. Mannequins? I thought Richard said in the commentaries that everybody around Gisborne are robots? ;) That was silly, though, lol.

18. Edward. Did you like his scenes in this episode? Do you think we should have seen more of him? I usually adore Edward, but I don't like that he was so unconcerned about Marian marrying the right-hand man of the sheriff, who's smacked Edward to the floor before. That has always made me raise my eyebrow at him.

19. Favourite scene overall, for whatever reason you have chosen it. The berserker fight. Just... no words-- sheer enjoyment. ;)

20. Anything you would have done differently in this episode if you magically had control and could change it. Definitely on board with the apology to Much from Robin.

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

I do love that we have 3 votes so far for an apology to Much for Robin.

And I am RIGHT THERE WITH YOU with that fight. It is SO fun to watch. Berserker!Robs aside, it is just a terrific scene.

Hahaha good point about Gizzy's robots. Because really, what else could they be, lmao.

[marjattak.livejournal.com]

Ha! Devil's advocate argument coming up next...

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

I quite like and agree with several of your points regarding Robin not being in the wrong there, though I think the personal attack "Pox on my skin" was a bit much.

[marjattak.livejournal.com]

It was admittedly graphic, but also a bit Shakespearean. Question is, how much does it take to get rid of Much? Maybe that Much? I'm just paying honor to Much's loyalty here. He proved he's not stupid or masochistic. I feel for him, too, but I think he's better off being angry at Robin and leaving of his own accord than simply being ordered to leave and feeling wholly rejected.

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

If that was Robin's game I think it was a dangerous game to play lol. I don't know, I tend to think at that point he hadn't decided to leave yet. So I think of it as lashing out because he is so hurt/upset/desperate. So in that regard, Much is owed some apology.

[marjattak.livejournal.com]

You make a good point. Robin still has his last ditch effort/scene with Marian to come, but surely, he is already overwhelmed by how (he perceives) she has abandoned him? So he does the same to Much, in effect. That part isn't rational, just a gut reaction. In fact it all is, but I'm arguing that there is a fundamental altruism that is affecting how Robin behaves.

Considering how things have been going and all the chances Marian has had to reject the wedding, I don't think Robin has any hope left, even when he confronts Marian one last time. He only does so, I think, just to see her and to get some kind of closure. So he could easily be thinking about leaving everything behind, even before Much finds him.

And I would have loved to have seen Robin later apologize to Much to being mean. It is a very disturbing scene, but then, I think that was deliberately constructed so that we'd know how deeply Robin is affected by Marian's defection to Guy. The exchange with Much only proves that Robin *really* cares only about her love, not about having lands, wealth, title, or even his freedom--all those things that Much talks about. If Robin doesn't know that this Richard is a fake (and how could he *know* at this point?), then he's even walking away from his chance to get so much as a pardon. What Robin is saying is that his life isn't worth anything without Marian. He can't just go on somehow. Much does provoke him, even if it is inadvertantly (although Much is being extremely insensitive on the subject of Marian and should know better). I think that's obvious.

Yes, I like Much, too, but he can also be self-centered. They both should apologize to each other!

[marjattak.livejournal.com]

P.S. I really love this discussion. I hope no one is being put out by my arguments. I can just really relate to what is happening to Robin at this point. There are so many layers.

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's fine don't worry. Interesting, reasonable discussion like this is fantastic. And the whole point of this post. :D

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

We're in agreement on that point about Marian - you really get a sense of that. Of the fact that without having her love in return, or of being able to have her...nothing else matters (And we of course get the proof of this later in show, in 3x01).

Yes, whenever I watch it and Much saying that Robin has to let Gisborne steal his life, I think bad timing Much. But at the same time, he's looking out for Robin. What can Robin do? Not a whole lot. And Much doesn't know Robin is thinking of leaving (if he even is by this point), and would certainly not want Robin to leave. He is, in a way, trying to get Robin to see the bigger picture.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

But at the same time, he's looking out for Robin. What can Robin do? Not a whole lot. And Much doesn't know Robin is thinking of leaving (if he even is by this point), and would certainly not want Robin to leave. He is, in a way, trying to get Robin to see the bigger picture.

Agreed. I don't think there's any need for Much to apologize. He was trying to cheer Robin up the only way he could think of, not being deliberately cruel like Robin.

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't think Robin's cruelty here is deliberate. I tend to think that he is lashing out without thinking about it at all cause he is hurting so much. This of course does not excuse it.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

I don't know -- he's smiling while saying all those horrible things to Much, so I think maybe he thought it would make him feel better to make someone else hurt as much as he was hurting.

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

True enough about the smile. So perhaps he was thinking he wants someone to feel as completely rotten as he does...but just isn't thinking more than a few minutes ahead, in terms of the consequences. Because as soon as he is done saying it and Much has shoved him, the little smile/smirk is gone.

[marjattak.livejournal.com]

11. The scene between Much and Robin (when Robin gets shoved for being a meanie). Thoughts on this. Necessary? Was Robs overboard on the cruelty, or do you feel for him because you know how much he is hurting at that moment?

I have watched this scene many times and remain convinced of my first impression. Yes, Robin was angry at Much for, basically, being Much and thinking about such ordinary things as food and shelter, BUT Robin also has to get RID of Much. Robin is planning on leaving. If Much had an inkling of this, he'd be right there following. Robin wants Much to leave him, rather than the other way around. It's easier and more certain that way. But Much is notoriously impossible to get rid of. Therefore, I say that Robin was no harsher than he absolutely had to be in order to force Much to let him go.

No, I don't blame Robs for his meanness here. Robs wanted to be alone in his pain and simply did what he had to do.

Furthermore, if we think that Robin has no idea that the coming of Richard is a sham (and why would we think otherwise at this point?), then Robin should be *praised* for making Much stay behind and finally enjoy life as a free man, with or without Bonchurch. A little pain in the immediate present is nothing compared to the benefits to Much of staying in Locksley over tagging along with suicidally depressed Robs. I think Robin believes this. Robin has no plan and no future at this point.

Finally, Robin "freed" Much, but neither of them ever gets over the Master-servant relationship. Much always has to serve, and Robin always has to feel he can somehow look after Much's future. At this moment in 1x13, Robin definitely knows he cannot be a help to Much, so he is doing the ethical thing and pushing Much away. Of course he has to be painfully mean about it. If he had been anything less, Much would not have let go.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

Just rewatched the whole episode, and I can see where you're coming from, but:

1. I don't think Robin was planning on leaving at that point. It's pretty clear to me that he still thinks he can stop the wedding -- he tells Much "There must be a way." He tries to talk Marian out of it one last time, then he sits and sulks for what seems like forever before finally getting up to leave.

2. Much still deserved an apology. Wanting to be alone to wallow in self-pity is no excuse to be so cruel to someone who's been nothing but unconditionally loyal to you IMO. I just don't get the impression that it's for Much's benefit at all -- Robin is too wrapped up in his own pain to consider anyone else's feelings.

I side with Robin 9 times out of 10, but when he's an ass to Much, I just can't.

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

That's how I see that. I understand that he is hurting, but it's no reason to say the words he says. Or, alternatively, if he is so upset he didn't even think about the things he was saying, the least he can do is throw in an apology afterwards.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

AWW, your icon! *melts*

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

Hee, it's a nice one isn't it.

Though for melting purposes, generally it's this one. Though that's a different kind of melting...

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

Er, yes, definitely a different kind of melting. He bulked up a bit in S3, didn't he? ;)

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

He did indeed. It's actually quite interesting (and totally not for reasons of perving) to see the difference over the 3 different seasons...

[marjattak.livejournal.com]

I'll absolutely agree that Robin should have apologized for this whole confrontation later--after they left Nottingham and the emergency was over, but I'm afraid Robin just wasn't given a chance--the series ended! Yes, it would have been nice to see something of the sort, but outside of exchanging a few words in Lockley, Robin doesn't even have a moment with Much.

But don't forget that before it is over, Robin has saved Much's life. There's a weird symmetry here. Robin is threatened with Much's murder in ep 1 (guards are going t throw him from the battlements) and in ep 13 (Vaysey holds a knife to his throat), and in both cases, Robin's dramatic save wins the day. In ep 13, we can be quite sure that after having his life saved, Much is fully satisfied that Robin didn't mean what he said.

I'm not sure Much needs the verbal apology as much as we women think we do.

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

I think of it not so much as a need, but as an 'it would be nice of him to do it'.

I've noticed that before, too. The two rescues, in 101 and 113. It's a nice touch.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

Well, it wouldn't have to be a long scene -- Robin could have just taken a second to say "I'm sorry" before breaking into the castle. I see your point about his rescue of Much being his apology, but Much does tend to want verbal acknowledgement from Robin. I'm thinking of this exchange in 2x08:

Robin: Old friend, you hold a special place in my heart.
Much: I do?
Robin: Do I really have to say it?
Much: Of course not. (after Robin walks away) Just once in a while would be nice.

[marjattak.livejournal.com]

The 2x08 dialogue may actually have been a script response to fan dissatisfaction with 1x13. Do you think? Many fans were vocal in saying much the same thing that has been said here: Robin was mean and should have apologized.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I had no clue how people reacted to 1x13 because I wasn't in the fandom back then. I suppose it's a possibility.

[mylogiceatsyou.livejournal.com]

What a pity they couldn't listen to fan response and magically bring Marian back from the dead after 2x13. ;)

[railise]

That, and bring Will and Djaq back, and have Kate magically transported to Antarctica, and--

--I should probably stop now, before I get carried away... ;)